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Hello smile

I'm Siobhan Curran/Kisa Naumova, and this is my weblog. I tend to write about stuff like crossdressing, Macs, code, cats, wine and Second Life, but in general it's just an ongoing conversation about all sorts of stuff. If you'd like to know a little bit more about what this all is, I recommend starting on this page which has a little bit of info on who I am, and what I'm trying to do — or you could dive into my five years worth of archives if you like.

Otherwise, feel free to close this box and explore...

Friday, 10th June, 2005

It's All About Dialogue

tagtranny rant

Oh boy, nothing like the opinions of a real woman to get the handbags of trannies rattling.

Over the pat few days, I've noticed a bit of a flood of emails in my Angels inbox — the usual chit-chat and "Where can I buy a wig?" kinda thing, but peppered throughout is a bit of an stirred-up argument about My Husband Betty.

I first came across the book in New York about a year and a half ago, and I must confess, that I haven't read the thing the whole way through (me and books don't really agree). I got through the first few chapters, and the last few chapters, on the plane home. Then I lent it to Kath, and I haven't read it again.

So, I can't really comment on some of the more intricate arguments of the thread, in particular the overly verbose (and quite frankly patronising) review by Katherine Walker-Parr, but I'm going to plant my feet in Claudia's camp on this one.

You see, you can pick as many holes as you like in Helen Boyd's methodologies and research and historial perspectives. You can argue the toss about "identity politics on the basis of informed and educated opinion". Lovely. Go right ahead.

But you'd be missing what I feel is the most important thing that that book has to say.

And that's as transvestites, we need to stop being so bloody selfish and start thinking about the impact we have on out partners, our friends, and even random people in the street.

...

I get a little angry inside whenever I read emails and forum posts that suggest that all our community needs is to be shown in its true light, and the world will start accepting us willy-nilly. It's suggested, over and over again, that all the images we see of transvestism in the media are "misrepresentative", and that if only they'd show us for what we really are, then everything would be rosy.

But I'm sorry. I think that's wrong. I think, in fact, that the images of transvestites on television are pretty bloody accurate — whether it's frumpy, dowdy, ashamed, furtive blokes peeking out of their living-room curtains to see if the local chavs have gone away, or it's the deluded "no-one reads me" local laughing-stock, or it's the fetishitic extrovert with a penchant for latex.

We're a wide and diverse community — and I think we all get our fair share of air-time.

The thing is, to my mind anyway, that those of us who insist that all we need is to tell our side of the story, would have a bit of a shock if they got the chance. All the conversations I read (OK, not all) tend to exist in some alternate universe — where every non-trannie spends all their days laugh at us, where women are jealous of us, and where everything we say and do is absolutely, unquestionably right.

Getting back to MHB though — the thing that I took away from it was that the TV community needs not only to be more vocal about itself, it also needs to be prepared to be challenged on some of the things it takes for granted.

...

Take that well-used answer to the question of "are you sexist?" for example. One of the things I overhear sometimes, is trannies saying "I can't be sexist — I admire women, and that's why I want to look like one".

It's the "imitation is the best form of flattery" line of reasoning.

The thing is though, just how close to reality is the image we portray of women? Most of the time, it's miles off the mark. The ideas of femininity that get bandied around the tranniesphere make me cringe sometimes — the adoption of dumbed-down language, the air of ditzyness...

(Here's a good moment to throw stuff in my face incidently. I know I do that too. But it bothers me. The self-images I have of Siobhan as the Little-Miss-Clumsy, and Graham as Mr. Sensible, really worry me — and if it wasn't for them being so ingrained in my self-identity, I'd take some steps)

...

So yeah, the point of My Husband Betty, as I read it, wasn't to provide an indepth, critical analysis of cultural and gender identity — there are loads of books on things like that. The point was to say "Oi, guys. It isn't just all about you. The things you do, the things you say, the way you present what you feel is an image of 'femininity' — they all have an effect and an impact on the people in the world around you. Stop thinking about yourselves for a change, and you might notice that the rest of the world would love to get to know yous, and what you're all about. But it's a two-way street — don't just demand acceptance. We have to work this thing out, and if you spend all your time sulking that the 'world doesn't understand you', well, then we're never going to get anywhere"

Word.

Completely agree with your sentiments Siobhan. Added to which Helen has never purported to be the authority on Trans folk. Rather she is a partner of a Trans person who has valuable and insightful things to say, after interviewing and meeting loads of Trans folk and partners etc.

Feminity to some Trans folks is a male-dominated parody. The Little Britain chaps exposed this only too well. And for fuck's sake, we're not 'girls' and we're not 'girly'. The amount of times I want to march onto a board and lay into some simpering tw@ you thinks that being all submissive and ditzy = feminine, makes me livid.

Christ, this whole Sparkle thing is all very good, but lo and behold a fucking Beauty Pagent!!!!!!! Mmmmh let's re-inforce those stereotypes that women have struggled to overcome for hundreds of year's by placing importance in appreance and all the shite that is used to keep women down.

I'll acknowledge we're all blooody guilty of starting off with some twisted notion of what we should be when presenting as women. But some f us grow, learn and wake up.. and books like Helen's help enormously.

rant over

I haven't finishing the copy of MHB that K lent me a few weeks ago, so I cannot comment on the book as a whole. However, the points you raise, Siobhan, are quite right. One of the reasons I stay in the closet (wardrobe, damn it!) is that I simply cannot expect society to accept me in a skirt and heels. It would be incredibly selfish of me to think . o O ( It's their problem, not mine! ) especially given that I have a lovely wife, a wonderful family and some amazing friends. it simply wouldn't be fair on them for me to go traipsing out 'en femme', because they, too, would have to deal with the negative reactions that would all too forthcoming.

. o O ( It's my problem, not theirs! )

Spot on as ever. Don't you get sick of being right?

Ho-ho-hold on just a cotten-pickin' minute! Sometimes I do feel girly. I'm not supposed to, because I'm an adult male, but I do. And I won't argue with the way I actually feel.

The problem is not the feeling. The problem is the word and the associations it brings. That feeling, which some people have some of the time, has nothing to do with girls per se. It's not a feeling that's exclusive to women, and when I feel it I'm not faking anything or being who I'm not. It's just a human emotion.

The problem comes when we fail to distinguish between the feeling and the way we think we're supposed to express it. If I feel that way and just live it, that's fine, that's me. If I feel that way and think I have to put on a schoolgirl's outfit and giggle a lot, then I am at best confused, and at worst a twunt.

If we had a better word to describe that feeling, one without the tired connotations, I'd jump at it. But in the meantime, I'm not going to deny that's how I feel sometimes.

ooh v interesting post siobhan. apologies in advance for my probably inarticulate response.

the bits of the post that really struck a chord were the bits about acceptance from the rest of the world.

The world in general thinks that anyone not fitting into the heterosexual/masculine/feminine norms is a freak, and something to be viewed with fear, disgust or ridicule.

I agree with you that its too simple to say that if we are just seen "in our true light" then people will like us, understand us and accept us. I do think though that people need to see us. Increased visibility of us gays has led to a greater acceptance (though not nearly enough), and the same is starting to happen for trans folk.

I am aware that in commenting on the trannie community i may be coming from a completely naive point of view — after all, i don't even know any trannies (other than in the blog world, on a superficial basis), but until you have increased visibility it'll be really hard to gain acceptance.

I'm not sure if i agree with your comments on the impact that crossdressing has on other people. Fair enough, if you have a partner, then its reasonable that you consider them as well as yourself, but the randoms in the street? no way.

if somebody has a problem with seeing a man in a frock(sorry) walking down the street, then it really is his problem, and not yours because you happen to like a skirt.

I'm aware that this comment has gone on a bit, probably without saying anything that well, but hopefully, you get the point?

The problem is not the feeling. The problem is the word and the associations it brings.

Kris, I agree completely — and I think that kinda sums up one of my major frustrations with the trannie community. This feeling that we have, none of us really knows what it is — but some of us try and go off on a scientific quest to quantify it.

...Which I think is utterly futile. I mean, can you imagine producing a stream of references and academic literature in defense of yourself when someone takes the piss?

(reminds me of that conversation I had with those Irish blokes in the hotel before Becky and I went to Angelic — I'd been listening to some random trannie try for about half an hour to explain why she did what she did, and give example after example, followed by analogy after analogy to back it up. The guys were just staring at her thinking "weirdo". Then one of them asked me "Why do you do it?", and I asked him back "Why do you not do it?" — and I think he got it :smile:)

Yes, we have this feeling — but when the insular nature of the Tranniesphere starts to grin over the issues, and come to the conclusion that we are 'girly' and 'in touch with our feminine sides', that's where we face the danger of (a) pissing off everyone else, and (b) being ridiculed.

I don't think there's anything wrong with the feeling — but the way we express it needs to be reassessed — calling it 'girly' is tantamount to telling women that their place is in the kitchen...

*pause for reaction...*

Taking myself as an example: Aside from the sexual connotations that dressing has for me (I'm one of the trannies that dares not speak its name...), the expression of myself as Siobhan is to do with feelings of insecurity, childishness, immaturity...

When I started this whole malarky, and invented Siobhan, there was a thought at the back of my head that if I could seperate out all the personality characteristics that I'm not so proud of — my insecurity, etc... — into Siobhan, then it would free myself from that crap, and let me be a more mature person.

And now, that really bothers me. In a sense, what I was saying is that my weaknesses were akin to femininity — I could package all my childishness up into a ball and call it 'girly'.

This is where the problem between trans/feminism really comes to a head. If we, in our forums and mailing lists, keep reffering to "girly" and "feminine", then we set ourselves up to be shot down. And we don't make any friends.

If we had a better word to describe that feeling, one without the tired connotations, I'd jump at it.

Me too — so maybe we should think of a new word. Or perhaps we should take the Gay Community's lead and try and reclaim our equivalent to "queer": trannie (or "tranny", I just like the way I spell it).

We don't need to define what that word means — the diversity in our community is so huge that all attempts to pin ourselves down to some homogeneric (she said, making up a new word...) raison d'etre will never work.

if somebody has a problem with seeing a man in a frock(sorry) walking down the street, then it really is his problem, and not yours because you happen to like a skirt.

C'lam, don't apologise hon — that's just what were are :wink:

I think though, that there's a flip-side to the idea that things are other people's problem. I think if we're going to start saying to people "get over it", then we also need to be able to get over ourselves.

We need to stop navel-gazing, and (as Katya put it so well on her blog):

we all get caught up in our little Trans comfort zones and pat each other on the back about things and progress and how good the pics look...

We need to stop trying to justify ourselves internally, and start engaging with the rest of the world.

*goes to think this through a bit more...*

I might come back to this in a more reasoned way later but my initial gut reaction to the above.....

I think you have the right to be accepted as men in frocks and I think you should be able to expect that and not apologise. The problem that partners may have is (often) more complicated than just not accepting transvestisim and in part stems from how self centred (needing to dress when the urge happens and no matter what anyone else needs (like access to the bathroom!)) and high maintenance (yes you look pretty, no the photo does not make your nose/hands/adams apple look big) trannies can be (not all trannies, not all the time). And also it is sometimes like having a third person in the relationship that needs to be considered and looked after. Not always a problem in itself but somewhat disconcerting if you thought you were in a relationship with Brian and actually you are in a relationship with Brian and Betty.

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Jane — partner of a trannie

It's so refreshing to have a real woman's thoughts, thank you Jane, and I agree with a lot of what you say, but are you really dealing with three people here?

I mean, your partner is one person that likes wearing a broader range of clothes, cosmetics and hairstyles than most men — isn't that what it boils down to?

Of course, I don't know how far your partner takes things — does he go out, does he dress "en-femme" 24/7?

Please keep writing in coz trannies need more RGs opinions. A bit of outside comment and opinion would do us all the world of good — that's what I say!

Have I mentioned I'm going on holiday?

likes wearing a broader range of clothes, cosmetics and hairstyles than most men — isn't that what it boils down to?

Nope — I think it's more than that. If it was just the clothes and stuff, it'd be easy to be militant about (cue Eddie's "Total Clothing Rights"). We'd just all get behind each attempt by a fashion designer to stick blokes in skirts and that would be that.

What's different, I think, is that there's something lurking at the back of our subconsiouses — something that's yet to be established — something that makes us go a lot further than just wearing a skirt. It's not just about that — it's about the way wearing a skirt makes us feel.

Some of us use the "I feel more relaxed and comfortable when I'm dressed" approach to explain it, but again, I think there's more.

Trannie is a state of mind. What I think is unfortunate though, is that that state of mind often finds its expression in a naive understanding of what it means to be female. And that's what I think was the thing that stood out to me in the small part of MHB that I read.

actually you are in a relationship with Brian and Betty

Jane, a fair point, but I sometimes think that the 'other woman' analogy is a bit of a cop-out. What I think is more disconcerting, is that you're being asked to completely ditch whatever ideas you had about your partner, and start interacting with them in an enforced way.

This is where the 'self-centred' part comes in: suppose it was me yeah? Suppose I was to insist to Kath that she called me "Siobhan" whenever I was dressed... It's a totally false situation. We can't expect people to drop every perception they have of us and start responding to us exactly how we dictate. The whole process is one of dialogue — it's about coming to an understanding of who and what your partner is. It's 'compromise' — but not in the negative sense.

I often think, that for partners of some trannies, it must be quite insulting to think that their partner thinks of women in that way: "This is what he thinks women are — therefore this is what he thinks I am". KNow what I mean?

Have I mentioned I'm going on holiday?

Several times honey, several times :wink:

'it must be quite insulting to think that their partner thinks of women in that way: "This is what he thinks women are — therefore this is what he thinks I am". '

Siobhan — Bang on. It is, when they think think that being female is being a dizty, forgetful, stupid,

blonde/brunette/etc. I find that incredibly insulting as a woman. I am glad my trannie friend Charlotte, does not do that.

I also find the girly act annoying when genetic women do it, I work with one woman who does it continually. She has a responsible job, a good education so why does she feel that she has to behave as if she has problems counting to 20 without taking off her shoes and socks? Actually I know why it's because she sees it as a way of attracting men!

Names — I can understand having a nomme de femme it gives anominty(sp) and is a form of shorthand my trannie friend refers to the urge of dressing up or being dressed up as "Charlotte coming out". What I have issues over is the use of the female pronoun especially I know it is the convention and I use it myself but would it not be more honest to say him, his? Charlotte has never asked me to call him by his femme name it would do no good anyway as I've known him too long as Jim to start thinking of him as Charlotte when he is wearing a skirt.

would it not be more honest to say him, his?

It depends I think — partly on context, and partly on the knowingness of the individual. I've often thought that it's generally OK for trannes to refer to each other as "she" when it's in a closed space — like an internet community for example. But I think that irony is important within that space.

I refer to myself as "she" sometimes, so does Kath, but it's with a very aware sense that I'm not a "she". And I think that makes it OK.

It's like the other day when someone left a comment informing me that my top-ten list made me sound like a bloke. I know, and I think people know me well enough to know that I know.

I get what you're saying though, and I can see how it's offensive. All language carries baggage with it, and the adoption of words that are specific to one section of society (especially a section that faced/faces oppression and discrimination) without any thought as to what that might imply is at best naive, and at worst downright insulting.

Perhaps a contraction of words is in order here — like Kris's "twunt" above? Perhaps we should take "her" and "him" and join them together?

But that would give us "herm" :wink:

"Suppose I was to insist to Katie that she called me "Siobhan" whenever I was dressed"

fair point. I shudder to think that my gf should ever think of me as Cathii... rather than Scott, dressed or not. I am not two people.... I am one complex person. I don't want to be thought of as a woman.... I want to be thought of as ME...... BUT I DO think we need to be shown in our true light..... As diverse and wonderful individuals.

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Cathii Scott

I donīt get it. Feeling girly, feeling feminine, why does it even have to be defined as that? If I really stop to think about it, some days I might be feeling certain things that are traditionally more masculine, other days more feminine, but I wouldnīt stop to clock them into one side or the other, it simply wouldnīt cross my mind. Why is there this divide going on? Is it just because itīs socially less acceptable for men to behave in a feminine way than it is for the women to behave as men? Surely thatīs changed enough these days for us all to pretty much free feel whatever we like without it having to be explained by a catagory — depending on who you hang around wiht perhaps. Whatīs it like to feel girly? Whatīs it like to feel laddish? I sure as hell donīt know. I think of those terms as behaviours and attitudes I might choose adopt rather than how I actually feel.

Iīm Krisīgirlfriend by the way and thereīs a lot I still donīt get about this part of him so itīs interesting to read this site. And I do know how to use apostrophes, itīs just this internet cafe that doesnīt.

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Fran

It's not that I find the use of "she, her" offensive it is just it is a little bit weird to me, in fact extremely weird when you see statements such as "her wife said..."

I get what you mean about the irony your use the female pronoun. Its use in the closed environment as well but I don't think it helps when trying to present trannism to the wider world. I like to think that I'm open minded about stuff but when I first started surfing the net for info on tranvestism the thing that really jarred with me and still does although not so strongly is "she, her" maybe that is because I'm not as open minded as I like to think I am, I don't know.

What Fran says I can relate to, the little voice in my head that is sounding my thoughts sounds female but is gender free, I don't feel girly when I put on make up, I don't feel chappish when I do DIY or make lists I just feel me and me is not male or female.

As an example

I drink real ale in pints when I'm in a pub, I am sick of having to defend that, why shouldn't I? Why is drinking beer unfeminine? Just because the majority of women don't doesn't mean that my choice is wrong or necessarily not womanly. When I have been accused of being unfeminine I have argued back that because I am female there is nothing I can do that isn't feminine perhaps not good logic but it tends to shut them up. What depresses me is that the majority of my accusors are female. Gender stereotyping is alive and well.

Well, for what it's worth.....

I, for one, don't know why I do what I do.

I struggle to reconcile Selina with Steve.

I agonize over this (there is little in the Bible to explain this scenario and as a priest it makes life a bit of a bugger) and it leaves me a wreck.

I envy those of you who can cope with one (or is it two) lives. I wish I knew what it was that you tap into that makes this relatively straightforward.

I have listened to all the arguments presented above and you are, in the main, all correct. All I would say is that if it makes you happy, then that is a wonderful thing. I ask you to remember that there are those who struggle with their reaction to their "Trannieness" who will NOT benefit from argument. We have all had our crosses to bear in getting to where we are. Let's not hold anyone back through reasoned argument about pronouns and the like, but try to help those who are still in the wardrobe to find themselves, whoever they may be.

We can't all be the likes of Siobhan and the like who can go and sparkle (even if we want to). Can we not recognize and support all those who are scared even to admit that they enjoy the odd skirt?

Ok. Sermon over. Regular discussion will now resume

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Selina M

Oh god, where do I start?

First of all, for me "My Husband Betty" was a breath of fresh air. It’s written from the perspective of an intelligent supportive woman in a relationship with a trannie. I've been in that relationship, and for me it really hit the nail on the head. My ex used to tell me that being a tranny is a very selfish and self obsessed occupation. And before you dismiss her comments, let me just add that she totally and utterly adored me as Karol.

But I guess the fact that she's now my ex, says it all. I've said to her (and my friends) that I wish I'd read "MHB" 12 months ago. I believe that for me it would have made a difference.

These days, I have a circle of female friends who are cool with Karol. But the other week, my best female friend gave me a serious talking to. Why? Because as Karol I was apparently being a bit pathetic and girlie. I always try not to dress like the stereotype trannie but I guess I hadn't put as much thought into how I behaved.

My friend, who is an incredibly cool, and gorgeous woman who I totally admire, told me that she was seriously close to slapping me because I was being such a Barbie ditz.

To be honest this really horrified me, as that’s the last impression I want to give.

It really made me stop and think, and I think she was probably right.

The things she picked up on would go unnoticed in the "scene" but she's not interested in the scene. She's concerned about me being able to make it on nights out in the real world.

It's interesting what you say about seperating things out ("if I could seperate out all the personality characteristics that I'm not so proud of — my insecurity, etc... — into Siobhan, then it would free myself from that crap, and let me be a more mature person"). I've been wrestling with that very topic myself lately, in a related but somewhat different vein.

The area that I've been working in (and sometimes it feels like work!) is BDSM. In the BDSM world, you sometimes see people do what many trannies do — adopt a different persona to get into the role of The Submissive, or The Dominant. You become someone else.

However, to really get to the kind of transcendent head-space that BDSM can lead to, you have to avoid that. You don't submit and become another person. You don't adopt a cruel, evil bastard persona. It's NOT role play. It's channelling and accepting a part of yourself. In my case, it's about learning that anger and aggression can be channeled through the heat of love and caring, to become something fresh, new and pretty damn amazing.

With trannies, the situation is similar: the temptation is to seperate out all those feelings and put them into a different persona. Sometimes, there ends up being a kind of battle between the two personas — and one of them loses. Is that psychologically healthy? I don't think it is. It's as damaging as the gender girls who adopt a "poor ickle meh" persona to get what they want from men (and oh yes, that does happen), or the men who adopt a "I'm fucking hard" persona to get what they want from women.

And, incidentally — where did you get the idea that Graham's the sensible one? :smile:

Howdy kids, its Cyanne, the greatest tranny/ie that never was and the female sidekick of the ever ascerbic and sinister Katya and floater in the lovely lilac lake of the transgendered.

I guess I'm with the chicks. I don't really understand what anyone means by the word "girly", as I don't believe it is something that I've ever felt as such, not to actually quantify anyway. And cosmetics and clothing, what would be termed the tools and trade of being female, have always been just things that I find amusing to play with and use to my advantage, but not something that I feel is really my domain. My life is gender-free and maybe that's because it's never been an issue (me wearing a men's suit is considered stylish, rather than socially inappropriate). I think being brought up in a deliberately gender-free environment means that I have little idea of what "My Man (said with tammy wynette drawl)" should be and what I should be as a woman.

When I first dragged Katya out, she was terrified and affected and holding my hand so tightly, but by the end of the night, she was back to being the pissed football hooligan in the corner, telling some random bloke why she still plays in number 11, graeme souness doncha know... although desperately more attractive than most football hooligans (but I digress).

In the beginning, there were so many strange and hidden things that existed in her mind, partly borne out of the fear of disclosure and therefore rejection. There were many questions that I had, "do you want to be with me or do you want to be me?" and alot of others that were also dealt with by Helen in MHB. As Kat was reading it, she was hearing echoes of that which came out of my mouth. Over the years, Kat has become more secure of herself and of me, and realises that if she's honest with me, I'm not going to run kicking and screaming. I think that Katya now has a healthy and realistic attitude. I enjoy both sides of the Andy/Kat creature, as they are both part of the same beautiful thing!